‘Idea of greater Israel fuelling Netanyahu’s ideology’: top UN official

Francesca Albanese, the UN’s leading authority on human rights in the occupied Palestinian regions, has long been an outspoken critic of Israeli violations against Palestinians and its aggressive posture across the Middle East.

In an exclusive interview with TRT World, the Italian international law professor sharply criticised the Netanyahu government’s conduct in Gaza, the occupied West Bank, Lebanon and other areas in the region and accused Israel of pushing the international system toward a “breaking point”.

She feels that the West is just “mirroring” Israeli conduct by suppressing protests against the Netanyahu government’s brutal conduct across the Middle East.

But she also finds the new generation’s “awakening” against “the system” hopeful and promising for the future.

TRT World: Why has Netanyahu increased his attacks on the UN? What is he trying to achieve?

Francesca Albanese: Israel violates international law more systematically than any other country. Many countries commit violations of international law, this is an open secret. And still, Israel has done it in defiance of UN rules and regulations, including in the face of criminal or quasi-criminal proceedings initiated by international tribunals. It does it with impunity. Why does Israel do so? Because it used to be aggressive against the system and its rules without ever facing any consequences. So, this is hubris.

But why does the international community allow Israel to act like that? Why is Netanyahu enjoying this much tolerance or impunity from the international community?

FA: I prefer to stick to and offer answers that fall within the realm of my competence and capacities. But this is a serious issue because today, Israel's defiance of the international system and of the international law, upon which the post-World War II order is premised, is extremely problematic. It's pushing that order and international law to the knife's edge. The system is breaking, and human rights will be sorely missed the moment they are no longer there.

On the one hand, there is this continuous assault, not just on Gaza, but on the Palestinians, on the people in the region, including the Lebanese. There is this assault against anyone who dares criticise Israel, be it special rapporteurs, human rights organisations, ordinary citizens or the Secretary-General. (Israel recently declared UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres a persona non grata).

And parallel to this is the rise of illiberal practices (across the globe), including in the West. I mean, the West is mirroring what Israel is doing in terms of silencing dissent. Look at how many ordinary citizens or ordinary people are being beaten up in the streets, arrested, profiled and silenced in Western countries. This is appalling, but it's all happening. So, we should be able to take a step back and see that this is not just about Israel versus Palestine or Israelis versus Palestinians. I agree with the Pope when he says the Palestinians are not victims of a war, they are victims of an ideology. But I wonder if today we cannot see that this ideology is much broader than the land of Palestine and touches all of us.

How do you define this ideology?

This ideology we are talking about is the one that conceives the right to exist in the land that was a historical Palestine. And Israel sees it as Greater Israel unified from the [Jordan] river to the [Mediterranean] sea. Several Israeli politicians and leaders are openly talking about the fact that Greater Israel should include parts of Iraq, Lebanon, Jordan and Saudi Arabia. I mean, it's unconscionable what we are sort of letting Israel get away with [this]. But again, there is an ideology that envisages the right to exist in this land for the Jewish people only.

And in 2018, the state of Israel even passed a law that recognises the right of self-determination in that land only to the Jewish people, recognising Jewish settlements as a national priority in the [occupied] West Bank, East Jerusalem and probably Gaza. So, this is the ideology. It's Greater Israel or, if you want, Zionism. It is extremely problematic because it doesn't see Palestinians who can equally enjoy rights, freedom and justice.

Is this ideology related to colonialist history?

FA: You can say that.

What are the borders of Greater Israel?

FA: I don't know. You need to ask Israelis. I know that the plan is about the land that remains of Palestine. Surely, it includes the occupied West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza. They are openly talking about resettling Gaza [in the post-October 7 period]. The call that has been recorded by many soldiers since the beginning of the assault in Gaza post-October 7th has been to occupy, to displace and to resettle. And since then, plans to forcibly displace the Palestinians from northern Gaza to the south, where they've been trapped, have multiplied and have been increasingly openly discussed. So this is where we are for sure.

Greater Israel starts with the annexation of what remains of historical Palestine, but I'm not sure it will stop there because now people in Israel are openly talking about whether Lebanon is a sovereign country or whether Israel should reoccupy Lebanon. It seems to be in a dystopian future to me also because Israel should have been stopped decades ago. And the fact that it does not have happened has emboldened Israel [for further violations].

But at the same time, people, especially people in the West, do not see how Israelis themselves are endangered by this ideology, by being trapped in a view of the world that conceives permanent war as the normal state of affairs. This is almost unable to envisage peace and coexistence in the region other than by imposing forms of domination.

Every peace-loving person would agree with your vision for peace. But how can this vision be implemented in this chaotic situation across the Middle East?

FA: No, it's very difficult today. We are as far as we have ever been from this idea of peace in the region and it's more chaotic than ever. The priority for me and many others should be to stop the slaughtering of civilians, to stop the genocide. This is the priority today.

And the next priority is to dismantle the military occupation and colonisation of Palestine, because even the International Court of Justice less than three months ago has ordered Israel to dismantle the occupation, to stop exploiting Palestinian natural resources, to stop advancing annexation and to dismantle the colonies. Israel's presence in the occupied Palestinian territory is unlawful. After this, Israelis and Palestinians will have to dismantle the apartheid [regime].

Member states now run around reciting once again the mantra of the two states. But how can you have two states when one people is being exterminated? This is what I've said since October 2023 under the fog of war. Israel seizes the opportunity to displace Palestinians from what remains of their homeland. It did it in 1948, it did it in 1967 and it has done it since 2023.

The only way to stop it is to stop Israel from doing whatever it's doing, which doesn't mean to make Israelis more vulnerable. Rather the contrary, it's to protect them as well because they have a government that's leading them toward permanent war. In war, no one wins. I don't think that Israel has any possibility to really ensure peace and security for itself if it continues what it's doing.

Most Israelis might not be happy about the way you see things in the Middle East.

FA: You would be surprised how many Israelis appreciate what I'm doing and how many Israelis might not agree with me and still can have a very respectful engagement with me. The problem is not between me and individual Israelis. The problem is that with the ideology that this government is defending. I have nothing against the state of Israel. Unlike what people write, I do not advocate for the extinction of the state of Israel. I just ask for Israel to comply with international law. Israel cannot live as an apartheid state and as long as Israel behaves like an apartheid state and commits crimes, I will always be a staunch advocate against these practices and I will clash with the Israeli government.

Human rights movements, lawyers and people like us should have big shoulders to carry the brunt of criticism. There is more that should be said not about me, but about people who stand against the system and their voice gets either silent or their words get totally distorted. This is the incredible feature of this time that it doesn't only happen in Israel, but it happens a lot in the West, where the level of pro-Israel propaganda needs to be studied on its own accord because it's been phenomenal. So shocking.

Do you think your stance reflects pro-peace protests across the world?

FA: Most people protesting against the genocide simply want the end of it. I've never seen so many people carrying a message which is so close to international law and justice. It’s phenomenal. This also reveals that human rights are a much better understood reality than what it was, for example, 20 or 30 years ago. The younger generation speaks this language. It's human rights oriented and the most beautiful thing which has surprised me. This new generation is able to connect the dots and see the commonalities and the core issues in the struggle for justice. That is social justice, climate justice, justice for migrants and refugees, justice in Palestine. They are all connected and it's amazing and it's true.

Eventually, they point to a model, an economic financial model that is behind it that underpins it and they don't want it anymore. Eventually, it boils down to capitalism. This is what revolution is much more powerful and offers to have much more long term positive implications. I'm in admiration for this young generation among which probably the most visible one is Greta Thunberg.

How can Israel face the consequences of its violations of international law?

FA: Israel should be isolated as a state that has committed heinous crimes and wrongdoings. That's the reality, which requires an arms embargo, suspension of provisions of fuels and any other materials that can be used to sustain the military assault against the Palestinians and other people in the region.

Of course, Israel has the right to protect itself and it's not doing that. The greatest Israel strategy at the moment is the greatest enemy of the Israeli people because it's provoking an entire region against itself. It has bombed Syrian territory, Lebanon's territory. It's devastating the entire area of Lebanon. It has bombed Iraq and Iran. What I think should be done is to stop Israel from being a threat to the Palestinians, to the region and to the Israelis.